Un paio di considerazioni su alcune prossime modifiche (publish 21)

[castellilo]

Sperando di venire incontro alle richieste di maggior chiarezza sulle evoluzioni di UODreams al seguito di OSI, copio qui alcune considerazioni riguardo al senso di alcune modifiche attualmente in via di introduzione su OSI e presto anche su UODreams.

Gli autori sono Vex e Hanse, entrambi in Origin con il ruolo di designer di Ultima Online.
I messaggi sono estratti dai forum ufficiali di OSI, hostati all'interno di Stratics.

Solo in Inglese, sorry.

[castellilo]

Sulle modifiche in previsione nei vendor

With Publish 21, we will introduce a new feature to NPC shopkeepers that will allow them to adjust their prices based on actual player supply and demand. It will allow for some new opportunities for craftsmen to profit, while closing a few loopholes with shopkeeper inventories. This feature has been up on the In Concept and In Development sections of the UO.COM Web site before. Concerns about the long-term stability of the system caused us to pull it. Until now, we simply haven't been able to re-address that feature.
Over the past year, we have found ourselves making bug fixes for a class of "buy low, sell high" problems in UO. I say "problem" instead of "exploit" because it actually is reasonable that a player should be able to buy some raw materials, process them into some kind of finished product, and sell them back for a small profit. It's not an exploit that gold can be created that way. But, it has become a problem, mainly for two reasons. The first reason is unlimited capacity. Not only is it possible in many cases to buy, transform, and sell some items for a profit, but you can do it over and over and over again ad infinitum! And second, in some cases you can do the process without even having to move anywhere, either because two compatible NPCs are both nearby, or you only need one NPC. When taken in combination, those two weaknesses of the system make it easier for the whole process to be automated. At that point, it becomes possible to make gold while away from the keyboard by having a macro program do it for you.

We've been fixing these issues individually as they come up. However, every time we turn off the largest of these gold faucets, players move on to the next largest one. The tide of automated gold creation is slowed, but not stopped. We found ourselves faced with a choice. We could go through all the shopkeeper templates, adjusting prices until it would be impossible to ever turn a profit by using a craft skill on raw materials bought from NPCs. (We realized that if we carefully adjusted prices so it was possible to make small profits doing this, then it would still be to the advantage of abusers to automate the process.) Or, we could make an alteration to the NPC shopkeeper marketplace holistically and make it fundamentally behave like a real marketplace. After much thought, we settled on the latter.

Originally, UO was designed with complex economics mind. NPCs used to alter their merchandise stock targets based on how rapidly they sold out of items, and as they sold their merchandise and supply became scarce, they would raise their prices. Also, they used to have limited bankrolls—they would purchase their stock from a global marketplace and sell excess inventory back to it. They also tracked sales from and to players, and their bank balance was never allowed to go negative. The system was set up so that NPCs would make a profit and even slowly create gold. It caused some problems as well—oftentimes, much needed resources were simply unavailable due to the rather slow restock cycle and conservative inventory adjustment logic. They would often refuse to buy items from players due to lack of funds.

At one point, we changed the system so that NPCs would restock more frequently. They would increase their stock targets faster and decrease them more slowly. We also eliminated their gold accounting, allowing their bank balance to go negative if they needed to purchase their target inventory from the global marketplace, or to buy back items from players. Additionally, we got rid of the potentially confusing and seemingly arbitrary price increases.

We met our immediate goals. NPC shopkeepers now had adequate stock available. Their prices were consistent, and they would always buy items back from players. However, those changes also had the unintended side effect of opening some get-rich-quick floodgates. Now it was possible to buy something, process it, and sell it back to the NPC shopkeepers for a profit. While before this would eventually cause the NPC to run out of money, now they would continue giving out money forever.

So, what solution have we settled on? Well, it's a hybrid between the original closed system with simulated supply and demand and the new system of unlimited quantity. We will be bringing back the idea of prices adjusted by supply and demand. NPCs will still have unlimited supplies of resources (both commodities and currency) to draw on. This time, however, the supply and demand will be driven solely by player action and not by fixed algorithms. Here's a description of how the system works:

Everything stackable, except reagents, will be subject to the following rules: NPCs always stock 500 units of their profession's commodities. They will also always buy back up to 500 of any stackable item they sell in one transaction.
They will always buy back a commodity at 1 gp less per unit than they charge for it. The minimum sell price is 2 gp and the minimum buyback price is 1 gp.
For every 1000 units of a commodity sold to a player, they increase the price of that commodity by 1 gp per unit
For every 1000 units of a commodity bought from a player, they decrease the price of that commodity by 1 gp per unit
The act of buying low raises the price on the bought item. The act of selling high lowers the price on the sold item. So, you may be able to profit for a while buy buying raw meat and cooking it. But eventually the price will rise on the raw meat and drop on the cooked meat, and there will no longer be any profit in it. It also means that commodity prices will stabilize at a realistic fair market value. For example, it will be possible for blacksmiths to buy all the iron ingots they want, as fast as they want. But, the faster they buy the ingots, the faster the price goes up. Eventually, the price reaches a point where most smiths simply don't want to pay that much for the ingots. On the other side of things, miners may not be interested in selling their ingots back to the NPCs at the default low price. But, as smiths buy up the ingots and the price raises, miners become more motivated to sell. Somewhere, there is a target fair market value for iron ingots. That price is impossible for us to divine. It depends on how willing miners are to sell their iron ingots and how many iron ingots are needed by smiths.

So, what does all this mean? Mainly, it means that there is now limited exploitability for any possible combination of buy low/sell high. And it also means that the designed-in fixed prices for many items in Ultima Online are now gone. These prices will instead adjust themselves over time to meet a fair market value. For the longest time, it has been the general belief that UO’s gold piece economy is very much inflated, but fixed pricing on basic items in the game has limited that inflation to affecting only those items traded between players. By always buying items back for one gold less than they sell for, this system will slowly begin to remove some gold from the system. It may also become possible to profit from previously low-value items.

We will be here watching. We don’t expect things to get out of hand, but if this system change threatens to make the game unplayable, we’ll be quick to fix it.

e...

Here're a few clarifications on some concerns I've seen expressed on this thread:
1> This system will not be put on Siege Perilous or Mugen. Things will continue to work just like before on those shards.

2> Blank scrolls will be excepted from the system. The changes are being made now and will appear on Test Center soon.

3> We excepted reagents from the system because, even though you can get them in loot, pick them up off the ground, and obtain some in other ways, we believe that supply might not in all cases be capable of meeting demand. Eventually in a future publish we would like to make blank scrolls and more reagents available through other means and switch them over to the adjusting price system.

4> We don't think empty bottles are too big a concern, because there are alternative means to obtaining them. You can buy a potion from an NPC and empty the bottle. You can find potions as loot. You can save your own empties and recycle them. (I do realize that making them using glassblowing isn't really viable and hopefully we can squeeze a fix for that in a future publish.) The only time a potion bottle is destroyed is when used to make an explosion potion (or, obviously, it decays). This is something we'll continue to watch and adjust later if need be.

5> Regarding faction merchants: We won't be making any specific changes right now but we will be keeping a careful eye on them. They will be subject to price adjustment. (Note that price-adjusted commodities by necessity are not affected by faction tax rates. This includes faction merchants.) However, you can effectively reset their price by dismissing them and placing new ones. This means that they will be useful as potential cheap sources of certain supplies. There are some mitigating factors, though, and their potential for abuse is not unlimited. We want to observe their usage and effect between now and Publish 22, and possibly make some adjustments to them then. Faction merchants are an important benefit to controlling a town. We don't want to just go and nerf them speculatively. In the worst case they will allow people a means to keep the prices of boards and ingots artificially low and take a small profit. But, it'll require some diligence and work. In other words, they aren't going to make things worse. For all those reasons, we intend to take a wait-and-see approach before mucking with faction merchants.

Vex - Designer, UO Live

[castellilo]

Sulle modifiche in previsione su Healing

Very good points. I'll expand a little and give a different proposal, then.

Address:
1) Consistency for PVM and PVP.
2) Effectiveness.
3) Cost in skill/equipment.

Change:
1) Slip rate is 26 and above for both PVM and PVP.
2) Slip damage is 35%, instead of 50%.
3) Healing range is 36-60.

Justification:
1) Consistency to combat templates, as was suggested.
2) Effectiveness
a) PVM a majority of the creatures do not do more than 40 damage in combat. High-end creatures will still require more tactics (balrons, champions) such as running in and out of combat. This is offset by the faster healing time.
b) PVP (120 magery and 120 eval vs 60 resist - to take into consideration curse spell):
i) Circle 6 spells (ebolt and explosion) deal 24-26 damage (25 average). This is without inscription. FC/FCR time max is 4.5 seconds for two spells.
ii) 1 slip due to possible interruption will drop _average_ damage to 31 points healed (more than damage dealt).
iii) 2 slips due to no interruption will drop _average_ damage to 20 points healed (less than damage dealt - but around 80% of damage as one 6th circle spell). The more damage to the healer is balanced by the mana cost to the mage, although the healer is still effective.
iv) Damage compensation outside of healing/magery can be an addition of skills such as chivalry to warriors and inscription/magic damage increase to mage templates.
v) The left over 1.5 seconds can be treated in a few different ways (not limited to these two): avoidance of interruption (running around), a dump of 3 lucky spells (not sure when the healer started bandaging offsets this as a possible tactical advantage), etc.

There are many factors in this balance. This is for discussion. Keep in mind these are average damage and healing amounts.

Thanks!

Hanse - UO Live Designer

[Kaleir]

Originally posted by Phenos

5> Regarding faction merchants: We won't be making any specific changes right now but we will be keeping a careful eye on them. They will be subject to price adjustment. (Note that price-adjusted commodities by necessity are not affected by faction tax rates. This includes faction merchants.) However, you can effectively reset their price by dismissing them and placing new ones. This means that they will be useful as potential cheap sources of certain supplies. There are some mitigating factors, though, and their potential for abuse is not unlimited. We want to observe their usage and effect between now and Publish 22, and possibly make some adjustments to them then. Faction merchants are an important benefit to controlling a town. We don't want to just go and nerf them speculatively. In the worst case they will allow people a means to keep the prices of boards and ingots artificially low and take a small profit. But, it'll require some diligence and work. In other words, they aren't going to make things worse. For all those reasons, we intend to take a wait-and-see approach before mucking with faction merchants. [/i]

questa nn l'ho capita O_o

[Ospite]

Due cose interessanti.
La prima speriamo che funzioni anche da noi, ma di sicuro dovra' essere calibrata diversamente, dato che ci sono vendor per esempio a Skara Brae su Felucca dove non e' mai stato un pg dall'inizio dello shard.
La seconda speriamo che migliori healing invece che peggioranla dato che e' gia abbastanza svalutata.

[ThunderStorm]

se a skara brae su felucca non c'è mai stato un pg dall'inizio dello shard, non cambia niente. compri ad es 1 lingo a 10 gp, lo rivendio craftato a 12 gp, solo che dopo la prima volta, lo paghi 11 e lo vendi a 11, e ancora dopo addirittura ci perdi compri a 12 e vendi a 10... il metodo è universale mi pare di capire (good good) e anzi converrà cercare prezzi bassi nelle città popolose e portare la mercanzia craftata in quelle disabitate (quindi popolandole)
EDEITO: l ultima frase al contrario, si compra materia grezza in luoghi poco frequenti e la si smercia in altri posti
NO RIEDITO: si compra in luoghi poco frequentati 8prezzi bassi) e si rivende sempre in luoghi poco frequentati (prezzi alti non inflazionati)
ovvero: si popolano anche i posti sperduti

[Gothrek]

Quest publish è molto attesa su OSI soprattutto per questi 2 aspetti

il mercato che per questo shard andrà ancora meglio, "costringendoti" a viaggiare per le città come è giusto che faccia un mercante

e poi healing, e dismont
healing sembra l'unica soluzione per utilizzarla in maniera decente visto che attualemnte spirit speack ha sbilanciato la cura facendo decare healing in molti casi,

Con questa publish si vuole dare una alternativa seria alla cura.

Dismont, una sistemazione, mi sembra normale che si dismonti a cavallo solo lancia contro lancia eil resto a piedi, fa molto piu' medioevo.

UP UP UP su ttua la linea.

[Ligeia]

Premetto che mi piacciono certe innovazioni e altre un po' meno, Tuttavia da quando sono qui sento spammare ovunque "su OSI e' cosi'".
Mi permetto la solita considerazione globale.
Sono state lasciate fuori alla porta, o in "prossima pubblicazione" o in "attendiamo che qualche admin risponda", alcune cose di OSI , e ce ne sono parecchie, sia per quanto riguarda il PvP, sia per quanto riguarda il resto del gioco (plant system, Doom Artifacts, Solen Quest per dirne alcune).
Una introduzione di alcuni aggiustamenti (quantita' di reag dai vendor, e altre amenità con l'ultima alpha) su OSI e' per bilanciare un gioco che nel GLOBALE e' sbilanciato o per rivalutare alcune skill.
La mia domanda e' questa: SIAMO SICURI CHE I BILANCIAMENTI SU OSI CORRISPONDANO AI BILANCIAMENTI SU UODREAMS?

Qui ho trovato estremamente sbilanciate alcune cose soprattutto perche' non siamo 5000 player online e ho trovato frustrante fare delle cose in funzione di scelte fatte per un sistema con macchine dedicate,come sono quelle Origin , su macchine che per quanto potenti sono comunque limitate.

Non sono affatto sicuro che Publish per OSI siano il bene di UODREAMS perche' finche' non e' tutto implementato non si puo' parlare di bilanciamenti.

Grazie dell'attenzione.

[Private_Me]

Originally posted by Ligeia
Premetto che mi piacciono certe innovazioni e altre un po' meno, Tuttavia da quando sono qui sento spammare ovunque "su OSI e' cosi'".
Mi permetto la solita considerazione globale.
Sono state lasciate fuori alla porta, o in "prossima pubblicazione" o in "attendiamo che qualche admin risponda", alcune cose di OSI , e ce ne sono parecchie, sia per quanto riguarda il PvP, sia per quanto riguarda il resto del gioco (plant system, Doom Artifacts, Solen Quest per dirne alcune).
Una introduzione di alcuni aggiustamenti (quantita' di reag dai vendor, e altre amenità con l'ultima alpha) su OSI e' per bilanciare un gioco che nel GLOBALE e' sbilanciato o per rivalutare alcune skill.
La mia domanda e' questa: SIAMO SICURI CHE I BILANCIAMENTI SU OSI CORRISPONDANO AI BILANCIAMENTI SU UODREAMS?

Qui ho trovato estremamente sbilanciate alcune cose soprattutto perche' non siamo 5000 player online e ho trovato frustrante fare delle cose in funzione di scelte fatte per un sistema con macchine dedicate,come sono quelle Origin , su macchine che per quanto potenti sono comunque limitate.

Non sono affatto sicuro che Publish per OSI siano il bene di UODREAMS perche' finche' non e' tutto implementato non si puo' parlare di bilanciamenti.

Grazie dell'attenzione.

A titolo personale ti posso dire che è quasi tutto bilanciato ( x non dire tutto ) , quello che manca sono script , che non rientrano nei bilanciamenti , ma nella "COMPLETEZZA DI UNO SHARD" .
Non vedo cosa possa sbilanciare la non implementazione del plant system ..... o magari quella di Doom.....

Si sono script meravigliosi che tutti speriamo di avere il prima possibile , ma non si puo' parlare di sbilanciamento xkè un dungeon o un artefatto non è implementato ....

Sbilanciamento in cosa PvP/PvM ?

Da quello che sò non manca veramente niente ora che è stata montata anche la durability delle armi e le spell funzionano sia da necromanti/paladini/maghi correttamente....

Riguardo scripts ideati x shard con 5.000 players non ne vedo , ma parliamo sempre di impressioni personali ( non parlare ora dei reagenti che è stata già discussa e stradiscussa come questione .... ) in caso tu ne vedessi ne possiamo discutere in PM ( x non andare OT ) e chiarirci ...

Ciao

[Ligeia]

Provo a fare un esempio per farti comprendere quanto sia il concetto di bilanciamento una cosa globale..

Se non sbaglio con la quest della Solen Queen puoi trovare una Ball of Pet summoning ed e' lo strumento finora utilizzato per quando ti disarcionano e ti segano il cavallo, oppure gli artefatti su doom sono stati appositamente creati per sopperire alle mancanze di alcune difese di particolari template.
Per quanto riguarda il plant system, le piante ti permettono di coprire dei bug nell'housing , infatti non tutti i pezzi sono disponibili nel menu delle case e per evitare di lasciare dei buchi nella costruzione si possono mettere delle piante per coprire quei bug.
Insomma non e' vero che considerare le opportunita' di OSI come "script a se' "sia efficace come metodo.

Gioco qui e continuero' a farlo perche' finora e' il piu' completo OSIlike ma voglio dare il mio contributo affinche si possa arrivare al meglio in globale e non rincorrendo le ultime modifiche a scapito della possibilita' globale di gioco.

[Private_Me]

Originally posted by Ligeia
Gioco qui e continuero' a farlo perche' finora e' il piu' completo OSIlike ma voglio dare il mio contributo affinche si possa arrivare al meglio in globale e non rincorrendo le ultime modifiche a scapito della possibilita' globale di gioco.

Il nostro intento non è quello di rincorrere le ultime modifiche , ma quello di essere OSI al 100% , di conseguenza anche con gli scripts che hai elencato te ....

Se non li vedi ancora ci sono 2 ragioni :

1) Sono in via di sviluppo
2) Mancano ancora i dati x poterli scriptare

Se hai visto scriptare oggetti o settaggi delle ultime pub , lasciando indietro quelli delle vecchie pub , è solo perchè scriptare qui è molto facile , e si può fare TUTTO con un solo problema : "Avendo i dati sull'oggetto o il settaggio da dover scriptare" e senza di esso nulla si puo' fare......
Oggetti/Settaggi che abbiamo delle ultime pub , sono dati da pochi dati , facili da accumulare e scriptare , x quelli più grossi come Faction System , Plant System e tanti altri , bisognerà aspettare un poco di più , con la premessa che prima o poi l'avremo anche noi ....

Ricordati , RUNUO è in beta...

[Zedog]

si ma io non so americano,gioco su uo-dreams e gradirei una traduzione per noi italiani pls